Building a V-16

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NitroNeal

Active member
Joined
Apr 3, 2012
Messages
44
Location
central Ca.-Hanford
I'm going to build an old school type ramp truck/car hauler. I've had this idea for a long time, tired of thinking about it, time to do it. Anybody could hang a cummins in it. Being hard core Mopar...my plan is to hook two 440's in line for a V-16. I've figured out how to line them up perfect and mount them. I'm going to use block hugger headers w/3" outlets and run them together on each ide to 6" pipe. My desire is to get the V-16 sound and smoothness. Being 90* V8's my thought is to hook them up 45* apart. My concern is the power pulses. Should one engine be 45 ahead or behind the other to avoid harmonic vibes? Or does it make any diff? Of course with a engine combo like this one needs a unique truck... got that handled. American Lafrance model 700.

Thanks,Neal.
 
There....figured out how to post pic.
 

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Sounds like an Interesting build to say the least.
I can't comment in regards to the engine hook up but i will be watching to see what you do.
Torchie
 
Sounds like a puzzle 8literbeater would like. I will make sure he sees you post.

Good, need some 'spert input. The one good eye opener I've gotten was "the snout on the rear engine can't handle what the front engine will put into it". Got that covered, going to use a billet stroker from AA alcohol funny car. 4.25 stroke, put 440 source 4.25 kit in front engine, zero balance both. Makes 512 c.i. X 2= 1024 c.i. Just right! Should make 1100 ft. lb. by accident.

Neal.
 
My desire is to get the V-16 sound and smoothness. Being 90* V8's my thought is to hook them up 45* apart. My concern is the power pulses. Should one engine be 45 ahead or behind the other to avoid harmonic vibes? Or does it make any diff?

I think you're on the right track... 45 degrees difference would be the only way (I think) to accomplish a 16 cylinder sequence. I'd also expect the offset pulses to run smoother than synchronized, though I don't know if it will or won't, just makes sense to me.

.
 
Being 90* V8's my thought is to hook them up 45* apart. My concern is the power pulses. Should one engine be 45 ahead or behind the other to avoid harmonic vibes? Or does it make any diff?

Thanks,Neal.

I'd say you're on the right track. You shouldn't worry about harmonics, as you aren't connecting the cranks together 100% rigid, as a single piece crankshaft would be. The harmful high frequency vibrations won't transfer between engines.

For the phasing, 45 degrees is right, but it's not because its a 90 degree engine. That's just the angle between the left and right banks of cylinders. Since a 4 stroke engine requires the piston to go down and up twice for a complete 4 cycles, that's 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation for each ignition event. Divide that by 8, and you have a cylinder firing every 90 degrees of crankshaft rotation. Split that, and you get 45 degrees of phasing between engine 1 and 2.

Now, for that V-16 sound, and other considerations. I don't know any V-8 firing orders by heart except a Chevy, so I'll use that as an example. They go 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. If you just take engine number 1, and put it at straight up TDC, then put engine number two 45 degrees after it, you'd get 11-88-44-33-66-55-77-22. You get two exhaust pulses on the left, then two on the right, two right again, two left, aaahh it looks like this: 2L, 2R, 2R, 2L, 2R, 2L, 2L, 2R
See the issue? There's a point where you'd get 4 in a row from the right, and nothing from the left, and same later on the other side. That won't make for a good exhaust system, but it might sound interesting.

So, you'll probably want to go something like 135 degrees out of phase.
Let's see;
engine 1 L-R-R-L-R-L-L-R
engine 2 -R-L-R-R-L-R-L-L

Yup, that does it. There's no more than two lefts or rights in a row.
Putting numbers on that:
1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2
-2-1-8-4-3-6-5-7
So your engine number two fires cylinder 1, 45 degrees after engine number one fires cylinder number 8.
Then you hear LRRLRRLRRLLRLLRL right?
Too bad I figured all of this for a Chevy!

As for the coupling of the two engines, I would be inclined to use a short driveshaft between them. They're relatively inexpensive, and you wouldn't have to build your engine mounts with a micrometer. If you use a coupler that doesn't allow for enough end play or side shift, you'll be taking out bearings I'm sure, if not cracking a crankshaft. Plus, I expect that you'd have to mount the engines solid, even the engine torque twisting the frame would, well, I'll just stop.
One of my driveshafts on my 8literbeater build is only 7.5 inches long, and one could be made even shorter.

I hope that helps. I have never actually done it before, but I've built many highly successful projects in my mind! ;)
 
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Damn 8 liter! Too early in the AM for all that math! Lol[S

I'm thinking you want the engines as close together as possible which would mean making a drive hub for the front of the rear engine that either pin drives or is bolted to the front engine's rear crank flange. I would say you will need to run both starters and flywheels in tandem just to get the required torque to start the beast.

I always wanted to do this but wanted to fuse the 2 blocks together and have a common crank and cam made up. Then just use the 4 separate heads...[;)
 
8liter, luckly I'll have same firing order. That's just the math I needed! the 135* deal is what I needed to know. I plan to put both engines on a run stand and tune them very exactly the same. Fresh o-haul I can get them to start in 1 or 2 piston strokes. I'm thinking with modern high powered starters it'll start without much cranking. As for mounting to frame, I think elephant ears and mid plates both engines with tight urethane mounts and trans crossmember w/urethane mount. Ivo and lots of others I've seen have used 2 sprockets and what appers to be about #120 double chain. Hadn't really planned on having flywheel on front engine.

Thanks, Neal.
 
Damn 8 liter! Too early in the AM for all that math! Lol[S

I'm thinking you want the engines as close together as possible which would mean making a drive hub for the front of the rear engine that either pin drives or is bolted to the front engine's rear crank flange. I would say you will need to run both starters and flywheels in tandem just to get the required torque to start the beast.

Yep, way too early. I was up late and on a roll from doing some math homework. It takes me a while to wind down. I agree on the rest too.

8liter, luckly I'll have same firing order. That's just the math I needed! the 135* deal is what I needed to know. I plan to put both engines on a run stand and tune them very exactly the same. Fresh o-haul I can get them to start in 1 or 2 piston strokes. I'm thinking with modern high powered starters it'll start without much cranking. As for mounting to frame, I think elephant ears and mid plates both engines with tight urethane mounts and trans crossmember w/urethane mount. Ivo and lots of others I've seen have used 2 sprockets and what appers to be about #120 double chain. Hadn't really planned on having flywheel on front engine.

Thanks, Neal.

Hey! Now I know a Mopar V8 firing order!
I'll leave the executive decisions to you. Just remember, fresh overhauls are only fresh for a day, high powered starters get tired too, urethane mounts flex and move, get old and wear out. The mass of the flywheel is needed for the particular engine. If you take it off the front engine, hypothetically you'd need twice the mass on the rear engine flywheel. Personally, I'd at least keep both flywheels, and probably run both starters as well.

As for any of the rest of the stuff like the dual chain coupler, they are certainly strong enough and simple. You'll probably have to get the engines mounted within .050" of true and centered, and keep them there indefinitely.

Tommy Ivo's and probably every other twin engine rig I've seen, was only made to go short distances, and taking out the main bearings, or any other long term damage is not a big concern for them. If they were hauling a load on a road trip, I wonder if they'd do the same setup.

My last two cents on the engine tuning: 99% of everyone I've heard talk about multi engine setups, believes that the engines have to be tuned exactly the same. They don't.

Not my specialty, so....

Did some searches.

https://youtu.be/jM0wN0zRhgk

I've seen that Sire Customs hot rod in other videos. It looks like fun.
His coupler has 3 holes in the middle, and 3 on the back end, and 6 on the front crankshaft. 3 holes will allow clocking every 120°, and 6 holes allows every 60°. Unless he precision drilled the bolt holes, and it doesn't look like he did, there's no way it's phased accurately. It works, but it sounds funky. https://youtu.be/XJZkJsN8-ww That goes for any coupler though.
 
I'd say you're on the right track. You shouldn't worry about harmonics, as you aren't connecting the cranks together 100% rigid, as a single piece crankshaft would be. The harmful high frequency vibrations won't transfer between engines.

For the phasing, 45 degrees is right, but it's not because its a 90 degree engine. That's just the angle between the left and right banks of cylinders. Since a 4 stroke engine requires the piston to go down and up twice for a complete 4 cycles, that's 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation for each ignition event. Divide that by 8, and you have a cylinder firing every 90 degrees of crankshaft rotation. Split that, and you get 45 degrees of phasing between engine 1 and 2.

Now, for that V-16 sound, and other considerations. I don't know any V-8 firing orders by heart except a Chevy, so I'll use that as an example. They go 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. If you just take engine number 1, and put it at straight up TDC, then put engine number two 45 degrees after it, you'd get 11-88-44-33-66-55-77-22. You get two exhaust pulses on the left, then two on the right, two right again, two left, aaahh it looks like this: 2L, 2R, 2R, 2L, 2R, 2L, 2L, 2R
See the issue? There's a point where you'd get 4 in a row from the right, and nothing from the left, and same later on the other side. That won't make for a good exhaust system, but it might sound interesting.

So, you'll probably want to go something like 135 degrees out of phase.
Let's see;
engine 1 L-R-R-L-R-L-L-R
engine 2 -R-L-R-R-L-R-L-L

Yup, that does it. There's no more than two lefts or rights in a row.
Putting numbers on that:
1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2
-2-1-8-4-3-6-5-7
So your engine number two fires cylinder 1, 45 degrees after engine number one fires cylinder number 8.
Then you hear LRRLRRLRRLLRLLRL right?
Too bad I figured all of this for a Chevy!

As for the coupling of the two engines, I would be inclined to use a short driveshaft between them. They're relatively inexpensive, and you wouldn't have to build your engine mounts with a micrometer. If you use a coupler that doesn't allow for enough end play or side shift, you'll be taking out bearings I'm sure, if not cracking a crankshaft. Plus, I expect that you'd have to mount the engines solid, even the engine torque twisting the frame would, well, I'll just stop.
One of my driveshafts on my 8literbeater build is only 7.5 inches long, and one could be made even shorter.

I hope that helps. I have never actually done it before, but I've built many highly successful projects in my mind! ;)


Dangit 8-litre, I think both my LLs slammed right into my RRs...and the other ones don't where to go....:D:rolleyes:
 
some years ago one of the Big Car magazines ran dyno tests with BBC's joined inline, they ran about 50 pulls with the engines clocked differently each time.

the least vibrations came with both no 1's firing in unison, the least amount of HP was seen with the rear engine firing 45* behind the front motor, and if my foggy memory serves me right the most HP was found with the rear engine in the lead by 7*.

but the horsepower only varied something like 10-11 HP for all of the configurations, so they said the bottom line was to run them, both firing a the same time as it put the least stress on the coupler.

I wish I could find the article but the clouds of time prevail, sadly.
 

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