Cast Steel - Cast Iron

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pistolpete

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
556
Location
Stratford, Ontario
Is there an easy way to tell the difference between cast steel and cast iron. Something in the back of my memory tells me you can tell by the sparks it throughs with a cutting disc/grinding wheel, but not sure why I think that.

I am looking to weld to the flange on a '40 for rear end, and I believe it is cast steel, but just want to ensure I am correct in my assumption, as we all know what assume does.

Is there any special requirements for welding cast steel? I know there is with cast iron, just want to make sure I either prep it all properly, or take it to someone to ensure it is welded properly.

Thanks for the help.[;)
 
I scanned a sheet I keep in a binder out in the shop. Pictures are just drawings, but it's pretty accurate as far as description.
 

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Some more info.

Cast Steel

Many castings are made from steel, rather than cast iron, in order to arrive at finished parts which have high shock resistance and good ductility, properties in which cast iron is generally deficient. Cast steel can often be distinguished from cast iron by its surface color. The ”gray” color of steel is so distinctive that the term ”steely” is often used to describe the color of other materials. When surface identification isn’t possible, the color of a freshly fractured surface will distinguish cast steel from cast iron. If necessary, use a cold chisel on the surface of the casting, and attempt to cut off a thin chip. From steel, you can cut a curling chip of some length; from cast iron, even a short continuous chip is unusual.


To the best of my knowledge, you weld cast steel like any other steel, and prep the joint the same. Mig, Tig, stick, whatever you want.

Hope this helps.

Dr. C [;)
 
Greatly appreciated guys, I'll take a chisel to a waste chunk tonight just to make sure. It threw sparks the exact same as a peice of mild steel angle I was cutting just after it, so I assumed it was cast steel.

That keeps the welding easier, if it was cast iron I was worried I'd have to take it to a buddy's shop and have him stick it with the "special" rod, i forget what exact rods to use... neverthe less I don't think it applies here.
 
Cast iron does not cut with a torch.

I wondered....

I broke a carbon steel 9/16 or 1/2" tap off in my 460. I had it chucked up in a drill and was "speed cleaning" the threads.
it worked great until it hit a metal chip or something to make it catch then with the momentum of the drill it snapped off like chalk way down the hole.

I was already being unorthodox so I just got the trusty torch out (Torch wasn't a nickname I picked for myself guys at work were poking fun...)
I heated the tap till it was glowing and gave it a blast of oxygen.

The Tap disappeared with a *pop* and the cast iron threads were not even damaged

The difference between iron and steel isn't the ingredients so to speak...it's the crystaline structure of the elemental iron in the cast iron or the iron in the steel which is determined by the other elements added to alloy the iron into steel.
Both different ingredients and different handling form different metals from elemental iron.

something interesting here.."Phosphorus and sulphur are undesirable elements to have in iron and steel and need to be burnt out. Unfortunately the desirable carbon burns away first so the carbon then has to be replaced. Allegedly the cheapest steel as used by budget quality car manufacturers has the sulphur and phosphorus left in. This latter allegation will be very much a trade secret, however the evidence of excessive corrosion can be found in scrapyards all over the world. Some steels known as "weathering steels" hardly rust at all. (see the Angel Of The North in north east England)

read these wikis in this order:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_iron

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_iron

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austenite

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martensite

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel

If you make it through the wikis you'll find the dominant difference between Iron and steel is the percentage of carbon.
The alloying elements and method of formation and heat treating being something that makes a difference but doesn't make THE difference between Iron and steel.
Most often when we think of iron and steel we think of the differences in the things that are made from them.

When we look at bendable bars, pipe, and sheet that are much softer than a cast iron block, we think hey that's steel... But it might not be.
If the carbon level is too high to meet the definition of steel it is wrought iron not steel.
Wrought iron is worked iron. it's the work process that changes the granular structure and rearranges the grains. A samurai sword starts out as brittle cast lumps of iron and is wrought into a strong flexible tool.

Same thing with steel plate which becomes rod, beams, sheet, and tube.
It is worked from low carbon cast alloy and is wrought into what we think of as steel.

Cheap cast iron has more impurities than good steel. steel has more austenite and martesite iron crystals where cast has more iron carbonite crystals which are a ceramic and could be why cast doesn't burn like steel.

Cast can burn though. If you run excessive exhaust gas temperatures, the heat will burn out the cast leaving it looking like a partially dissolved sugar cube or looking like acid ate it.
The high heat also makes it more brittle.
Putting TURBOS on older non turbo diesels who's parts are not cast from alloys anticipating higher exhaust gas temperature has caused head problems for some people


Tempering is a heating process that removes some of the brittleness from work hardening steel so it can have flexibility.
quenching locks the high temperature grain structure in before slow cooling can form the low temperature grains.
It takes several heat-cool cycles to rearrange most of the grains in the metal. the more you do it, the more even the grain structure throughout the thing your making.

Cryogenics has been added to the tempering in an interesting way.
cooling the metal to near absolute zero repeatedly has an effect on the metal that is similar to a forging process.

By cryonizing castings you rearrange the grain structure more uniformly. when returned to room temperature the item returns to standard dimensions but has been "forged"

A cast steel crankshaft when struck with a hammer emits a dull thud because of the globular arrangement of iron, carbon, and other elements in the cast.
A forged steel crank will ring when struck. It has a tighter grain structure.

If you cryonize a cast crank it will then ring more like a forged crank because you have in effect forged it not with a hammer and anvil but by compacting the atoms with extreme cold.
A friend who teaches industrial engineering at Bellvue University and who was a maintenance engineer at Loziers here in Omaha told me that cryonizing the copper tips for the mig welders made them last 3x longer. he coached me on welding cast.
The industry method for repairing cast is a section repair. They grind out the crack and form up the area so the damaged section can be recast. Then they heat the whole casting hotter than red hot then they pour molten cast into the section repair and let it cool as if they had cast the whole thing from scratch.
His method is an even preheat as much as you can. you use 100% nickel rod if it is not a surface that needs a hard face.
You weld about an inch then pick at it with a welding hammer until the temperature of the bead is about the same as the casting.
Make sure you burn through the "carbony" areas and get a good penetration into the metallic areas. The carbony areas are where the cast iron disintegrates while your welding on it
The pinging and hammering equalizes stress risers as the bead cools.
As you work around on the piece welding and stress releaving, microscopic fracturing in the cast near the weld that will most definitely occur from the heat and the contraction as it cools, will not travel. They will meet microscopic dead ends.
"cast steel" having lower carbon and a more flexible alloy than cast iron welds up about just like cold rolled or forged. Pre heating, pinging, and slow cooling the weld on cast steel can still prevent a brittle weld and stress risers.

side note:
Cast cranks are used in some engines in preference to forged where vibration dampening is desired.
steel is better for high speed high powered engines but if a cast crank has the strength for how it's going to be used in an engine it will have less vibration = engine lasts longer.

A forged crank will whip and vibrate more than a cast one... think one made from a spring
and the other made from frozen mashed potatoes.
 
I'm looking for a picture but can't find it...
On my 460 the block at the upper driver's side long water pump bolt was cracked.
They already had resized a couple main caps, line honed the crank bore, decked, bored and finish honed the block when the weenie little hair crack in the very edge of the water pump boss showed itself.

The only options were start over with another block or try to fix it.

The machine shop told me sometimes when you run a bolt into a dirty blind hole, the pressure from any dirt can hydraulic the casting and cause a fracture at the bolt hole.
They said it probably happened once when the water pump was replaced and didn't show up on the surface right away after the hot tank.
You almost couldn't see it at all, it was only noticed after the final cleaning after all the machine work was done.

man when I started grinding into it... it branched out all over the place into hundreds of tiny hairline cracks deep in the casting.
I kept following the little black cracks until they were all gone... and I was looking at a 2-1/2 inch hole in the water jacket where the water pump used to bolt up... looking at the wet side of the #1 cylinder.

I ground the edge of the hole irregular and dug into it at 90 degrees like you do when patching into fiberglass. I didn't want a straight line weld.
I started running bead around the perimeter welding an inch, pinging till it wasn't glowing and then moving to the other side and doing it again.

I worked the perimeter inwards maintaining the water jacket between the front of the block and the #1 cylinder.
I built up the water pump boss and the bolt boss with 100% nickel rod.
Then I reshaped the repair with a die grinder
I rough ground the water pump gasket face close as I could get it to flat
I finish milled the face of the repair flat with a file.
I drilled and tapped the water pump bolts and rounded out the water passage from the water pump into the block
After painting it you can't tell it was repaired except it's smoother there.
I've put around 20k on the engine since... no fractures and no leaks

worked pretty good what my engineering friend told me to do
 
If your going to take a guess....
I'd assume cast steel if the part is in tension loading. I think engine blocks, heads, intakes, some brackets, and transmission cases are cast iron and most everything else should be cast steel.

If were talking about a critical suspension component don't weld it to cast anything.
It gets done on 4 wheeler trail rigs and on back 40 farmer junk but from everything I've read it's Not safe for the street

If it is a critical suspension component... best design is to bolt it to something or create a bracket that bolts to something out of cold rolled or hot rolled steel then weld to it.
think about it this way...
Would you trust suspending your vehicle on a chain from this bracket over your kids?

If it's just a rinky dink bracket for something stupid or a shock mount weld it up and see if it works
 
Tourchmann

thats a lot of information after midnight and I always wanted to understand "weathered steel". Thanks for sharing.
 
I found the picture of my 460, not much to see.

100_1801.jpg

The highlighted area is the section repair I made with nickel rod. the upper part of the Water pump boss needed completely ground off through to the water jacket to get out all the corroded hairline cracks. It was an egg sized repair

repairedarea.jpgrepairedarea2.jpg

I'll throw in some pics from when I subframed the 76 f250 2 wheel drive with parts from my rusted out 77 f150 4x4

2x2 suspension gone.jpg2x2 stripped and marked to cut.jpg76 with axle in.jpg77clipoff.jpg77frame stripped 2.jpgalmost rolling.jpgassembled 2.jpg
 
Ford never built a dentsides supercab with a coil spring front.

It's kinda getting there. taking pretty long for a winter project.
I had about 7k in the green and white truck less than 20k on everything mechanical rebuilt new and a mildly built 10.75:1 compression 460

Next phase tear down. Install the 4 speed and part time transfercase, blast and paint the frame with black imron, sandblast and paint the underside sheetmetal with ZRC galvanizing paint, do the bodywork and get it painted.

100_1799.jpg100_1797.jpg100_1802.jpg100_1803.jpg

stock suspension height, it is not lifted.
285 75 16 geolanders
It rides along at 70 mph very very smooth and nice for a 4x4.
thinking about adding hydro boost brakes while I'm at it
 

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