Oil Filters - comparative sizes

I'm putting this here in the off topics section because it is not about rat rods, more of a rant.

(Note: I don't want to percipatate a big discussion of one brand over another, either.)

Just this: Why do they designate the same oil filter for my Dodge Grand Caravan V6 4.0L as they do for our Dodge Journey 4 banger 2.4L? Seems really crazy to me. I generally try to find a filter with the same diameter, threads, and gasket size, only longer, for larger capacity (if there's room for it). I figure the more media surface area there is, the better. (Before oil starts to go through the by-pass valve.)

I could have posted this on the Dodge Journe site, or the Chrysler Min-van site, but those guys are generally not real motor heads, and most just say you better go by the book. What do you'all say?

I don't understand what the problem is that they both use the same filter??? Every Ford car made used the same one for several decades.

bigger

on oil filters l have pretty much went with bigger is better, why else would there be so many kits for 2 or 3 even 4 filters to be used on high performance stuff.

look at the size on most diesels, they are huge, gotta be a reason the designers did that.

Later

Same filter, different price [S

I heard once that bigger is always better

Willowbilly3 said:

I don't understand what the problem is that they both use the same filter??? Every Ford car made used the same one for several decades.

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Well, I have always thought along the lines that a larger engine (6 cyl vs 4 cylinder) has more moving parts, and thus more oiling demands. And like skull says, they install more filtering capabilties on high performance engines. But I'm also thinking that the large filter will be less likely to need to activate the bypass valve, because of having more surface area of filtering material. And along with that, it seems logical (to me, at least) that a smaller filter will clog sooner, so thus stop doing its job sooner. But like I said, a lot of people say it is just a waste to put on a larger one, or that you "might void your warranty". Well, I have never had a vehicle that had a warranty, so I don't really care what the manufacturer might think of what I do with the vehicle.

A lot of the cars back in the 40's came out of the factory w/o any filtration at all (like the old lawn mowers), but by-pass filters were a popular add-on, and now we wouldn't think of running our cars with no filtration, and the road conditions are generally many times better, and the oil better as well (they say). But I am interested to hear what everyone thinks. (And I am trying to identify the largest filter I can find that will fit on my Dodge 4.0.)

ive been selling a few different filters as part of my job ( Donaldson and Sakura brands)

what I have discovered over the last 11 months, is .. most filters work to a certain particulate level measuring particulates in density. while the filter for your dodges might be the same for both engine sizes it possibly also works with the oil pump as fitted to both engines within a certain pressure range or flow rate .
While bigger may seem better, particulate density is a consideration ie 10 microns vs 3 microns, 3 is better. regular oil changes count irrespective of physical filter size .. filters can also have a range bit like spark plug heat range, so the next number in line could have higher or lower micron density catch-ability.

its possible this filter is common across a range of other vehicles. We have several sizes of filter that individually have several different vehicle applications .
If an outside supplier supplies to several or manufacturing costs of one size filter is half of the next best.
Diesels also run a water trap as part of the fuel system as any water at 20 to 1 compression will trash pistons

I guess the best thing is you go to one place on the shelf for both vehicles instead of hunting for one or the other..

crate was thinking....
but still doesn't know it all.....

Maybe the 4 banger has an oversized filter, not the 6 is too small. If you are changing your oil when you should, then it really shouldn't matter if it is the one the manufacturer recommended. They are the ones who have to warranty the thing and I doubt they would skimp to save a few cents.
Also along the lines of what 23crate is saying, some filters have a higher pressure bypass. We used to run factory AMC filters on fords because they had a higher psi bypass. Why?, I don't know, just one of those dumb things like don't set a battery on concrete that we believed back then.

Not pushing one brand over another, but my local parts house stocks Wix filters. He has a paper catalog, a novelty these days, that not only lists filter numbers, it also lists thread size and pitch, microns of filtration, diameter and length. You can take the catalog and find different filters of differing sizes. Case in point, I needed a fuel filter for the APU on my truck. It's a Thermo King unit, but the engine is a Yanmar diesel. It had a Donaldson filter on it when I got it, took the number to him and we found an interchange in the Wix brand. He didn't have one in stock, we cross referenced the thread size and pitch, and determined it's an odd ball. Turns out, it only fits two engines, both Yanmar, both used by Thermo King. Ended up having to order it, $25 for one filter the size of a normal oil filter. Your local parts place, if it's something other than the national chain style store, might be a good place to look if they still have the paper catalogs to go with the computer. The chain stores for the most part employ folks that have little knowledge other than what the computer tells them.

When I had my '83 s-10 blazer they made two filters. They made a long and short, 2w and 4x4. I always used the long one expecting it to have more filter media.
I think the best is to change your oil before it gets coal black.

Descriptive information (diameter, length, gasket thickness, ID & OD, relief PSI) is all available for Fram (Yeah, I know. But let's not go there) filters - I didn't check if other manufacturers also make that available, although I think I saw the same set of info for MoPar filters. So using that info, a person can compare the various filters, and pick one that has a greater capacity. I do change oil pretty frequently, because it used to be every 2,000 miles or so, so 3,000 seems like a long time. Our vehicles are used for a lot of short trips in the local area, so I think that it is better to do it pretty often, mileage wise. The oil is never really black, and it is probably always still plenty good yet, viscosity wise.

But the filter they indicate for both engines is about the smallest filter I've ever seen. That's fine for the 4 banger, but it seems to me that they are just using the same one on the 4.0L V6 because it's convenient. Yeah, it'd be nice to use the same filter for both cars, but if I do, it'll be the largest I can find that will fit. So I guess I'm just a subborn old goat.

As far as the deal about setting batteries on the concrete being bad, I think that really was so, for batteries in the old bakelite cases. But after they started using plastic, it didn't really matter anymore, but the saying hung around. (I do still put a battery I want to keep on a piece of wood, just in case. So there you go.)

Sorry. I didn't mean to spoil the discussion. And I do appreciate those who took the time to answer. If, for instance, the additional filter element area creates a different amount of 'back pressure' that may affect the automated "time to change oil" process in the computer, I'd like to know. I'm certainly not a scientist, or an engineer - I just think through things logically, but I know that doesn't always do the job.

hehehe I do find it interesting there is no micron particle measurement in the fram description .. I did a quick comparison for a 09 avenger ,, 40 microns was a result thems some pretty big chunks to have swimming around in your oil.. .. I expect a smaller filter wouldn't provide great filtration otherwise too much pressure may end up evicting the filter from the block , or just poor oil pressure a volume issue, plus there would be a tolerance built in by the manufacturer
we change on average every 3000miles over here - 6k for filter ..

If you like I could do a quick search and check what does / could work .. just need the fram number

thinking that's where you need to start ,, then `compare all the other features.. you happy to go bigger check the application is workable.

also most filter companies will do a cross reference so you can try their brand easily...

interested in the no battery on the concrete idea..

intrigued crate

Hi Crate.

The indicated Fram filter for both vehicles (2009 Dodge Journey 2.4L & 2010 Dodge Grand Caravan 4.0L) is the PH10060. I have been using the larger PH10575 on the Journey since the first oil change after buying it in December 2010.

You are correct - I couldn't find any information for the micron rating for Fram. (I have heard the skuttlebutt about Fram, but I started using them back in the 70's, and back then everyone said they were good filters. I know that manufacturers often cheapen a product once they have a loyal following, so I suppose I need to consider switching to some other brand.)

The PH10060 is 3: dia, and 3.33" long, while the PH10575 is 2.98" dia, and 4.06" long. It is possible that a PH2 would also fit (indicated for the 2011 Dodge Durango V8 5.7L), at 3.66" dia, and 3.98" length, but I'd have to check if there is room for the extra diameter. (The length is no issue at all. Well, within reason...) Another one I found, that I had not seen in a visual comparison at Walmart, is the PH10590 (indicated for the 2010 Dodge Dakota V6 3.7L fuel injection), with a dia of 2.98" like the PH10575 I've been using on the Journey, but a length/height of 4.96. The relief PSI for the filter they specify is listed at 9-12, and the PH10575 that I've been using (on the Journey) is listed at 9-15. The longer PH10590 is also listed at 9-15 PSI.

It is interesting to me that you change the oil 2x to 1x for the filter. I used to do that, too, but then I heard that some guys do it the other way - change the filter and not the oil, so I went back to doing both at 3,000 miles. (Or trying to. Sometimes I'm late with that.) I guess that would be another topic for discussion.....

One local parts store used to have several display oil filters that were opened up. The Fram, by far, had the least amount of media, Hastings and Wix having the most.

Willowbilly3 said:

One local parts store used to have several display oil filters that were opened up. The Fram, by far, had the least amount of media, Hastings and Wix having the most.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I have heard that, too. But I'm intrigued by the thing that Crate brought up - the Micron rating. As I understand, this has to do with the size of particles that are allowed to pass through the filter media. I realize that the smaller the particles are that will be trapped by the filter, it would seem that a greater surface area would be required (to avoid it quickly becomming clogged), but it is possible to have a lot of media surface area, and still let a lot of stuff through, simply because it is a courser 'fabric'. I wonder if anyone has tested filters based on this assumption, and how that could be done.

Most of the comparisons I've seen just compare filter media surface area. But one such evaluator noted that the filter media was packed into the cartridge so tight that he questioned whether the area between the folds was actually doing any filtering. A filter with less media surface area would make better use of its total area than one like that, so might possibly be more efficient.

hmm methinks we need a scientist...

what i have discovered is an oil filter manufatcurer will make a filter to the meet the engine makers specs. with a catalogue and some specs its possible to find a good comparison that would do a better job micron wise, our Donaldson guys say 'fit to the manufacters requirements '

(also used in GM light trucks)

a Baldwin B7449 is 3''OD is 4 3/32'' long. - 20psi relief

Fleet gaurd LF17551 is another option both are a 40 micron

Donaldson P550794 (also used in GM light trucks)
all are a direct cross and may be a better product..

Dodge themselves may have a better option could be worth checking out with their head office...

what intrigues me is both my 2000 Toyota and 1981 Isuzu run filters that are 15 and 20 micron respectively . 40 seems helluva big.. still i guess over time as the filter fills, it will catch smaller particles
yes more filter media will make a difference, - agreed too much is not so good. but at pressure this may negate the tighter media packing somewhat
as Willow has said there are some brands who skimp on filter paper.

id like to see some more info come out regarding this

yep oil/ filter change frequency could open a few new ideas.. bring it on ...

If you change your oil often enough, it really doesn't matter anyway.