Thoughts on titles

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Willowbilly3

A *real* tin magnet
Joined
Dec 10, 2007
Messages
7,847
Location
Black Hills South Dakota
I was just on another forum and the oft asked question about obtaining a title came up. specifically buying one. I was selling them a few years back and got shut down by the treasury department and had to surrender all the titles I had from a 50s junkyard. I was using the old "historical document" and "not to be used for illegal purposes"terminology which might cover you, even though I knew what people were buying them for. I doubt if it's legal in any state to use the title from one vehicle to prove ownership on a different one and is most likely a felony. Lots of us have participated. I guess I got to wondering why the forums aren't a little more uptight about people using their format to knowingly be involved in criminal activity. Just one way to look at it, maybe not everyone would agree. Thoughts?
 
I am really shocked that the Treasury Dept went after you and succeeded. How can it be illegal to buy and sell a piece of paper that is advertised as being an Historical Document ? If that were the case, all the vendors at swap meets who openly sell them would be arrested, as would all the guys who buy them. :confused:

Like everything else there is the real world and the perfect world to this situation. In the perfect world, YES, it is totally illegal to use a title from one car for the purpose of getting another car registered. That title was assigned to a particular car and should remain with only THAT car. That is the law.

Now, in the real world, probably 50 percent of the old cars on the road today took some creative paperwork shuffling to get that piece of paper needed to get them on the road. This wasn't done by car theives or done for any nefarious reasons, it was simply done by some rodder or restorer who dragged an unwanted hulk out of some barn or creekbed and who lovingly brought it back to life. He spent a lot of money buying parts (which the Government benefited from via taxes and other revenues), and once he got it registered the Government continued to make money on via licensing and gas taxes.

As for the forums participating in this, that is open to debate. Just like Ebay, Craigslist, and others can't monitor every transaction between two people, neither can a forum. If I want to buy a title to hang on my wall, or a letter signed by George Washington, or anything else, that is between me and the seller.

There has to be an interesting story behind the Feds coming after you like that. :confused:

Don
 
Just a pm to Tripper would get it disallowed on this board. It is tedious to have to swat flies constantly as a mod however and it makes more work for him. You have to jump thru hoops but i believe you can get old lost/no title vehicles retitled legally in any state and the peace of mind is worth it. We have to remember if the process is too easy our property can be stolen and put in someone elses name as happen to me in MO in '68. I'm sure it is not as easy to do that now. Good post WB.
 
Why cause problems where there isn't one ? Rocking the boat now will only hurt any good rodders who are trying to get one of these documents to display on their wall. If we take away the ability of the buyer and seller to hook up we are just going to hurt someone that should not be hurt.

Let sleeping dogs lie, for God's sake. :rolleyes:

Don
 
If it wasn't a problem with some guys using this the wrong way there wouldn't be a proplem with someone wanting one for a wall hanger (some of these old titles are real cool). But there is always going to be that bad apple, and all it take is one bad apple. As I have posted in title Q&A thread I'm not about to try to totally buck the system. Like Eman said about making it easy, this keeps some of the BS for happening. I know a lot of states are different then Colorado. But the DMV here is really hard nosed on titles. If your title or car comes from out of state you will has to have the HI-PO do a vin check. If they can't find one or they even think something looks wrong, you are going to do all the same paperwork that you would do without a title. Yea the paper work takes forever, mine took 9 months.

BTW as told to me by the HI-PO, Messing with a title or vin is a class 1 felony why chance it.
 
If guys think getting a title on a rod is hard, they
should try titling an old harley with messed up, or
missing papers!! It's nearly impossible!! I've got a
nice old shovel sitting right now with no forseeable
solutions to registering it! And it's not stolen!!
 
The Gov just didn't like you cuttin' into their business!

It's kinda like weed, get too big or obvious and eventually someone will have a problem with it. In both cases the law knows it's mostly harmless. It's when what someone is peddling gets involved in a crime is where the problem starts. Then it's crackdown on everything time.

Are you trying to start drama? [ddd
 
If guys think getting a title on a rod is hard, they
should try titling an old harley with messed up, or
missing papers!! It's nearly impossible!! I've got a
nice old shovel sitting right now with no forseeable
solutions to registering it! And it's not stolen!!

Rainman hit the nail on the head here. Again talking about Colorado, most of our DMV regs stemed from bikes and carried over to cars and now trailers. To title a trailer in Colorado, you now have to do all the same paper work you would have to do for a car if the trailer doesn't have a Colorado title to start with.
 
If guys think getting a title on a rod is hard, they
should try titling an old harley with messed up, or
missing papers!! It's nearly impossible!! I've got a
nice old shovel sitting right now with no forseeable
solutions to registering it! And it's not stolen!!

Try getting one for a WWII Army tank :eek:
 
I'm glad we didn't have titles until 1975, it can be a pain on anything built after that. Anything before 75 though is easy, just need a vin number of some kind.

I've often wondered about those guys buying a title like that. What good would it be if the numbers on the title didn't match those on the car? Looks to me like it would be the same as not having one.
 
It isn't drama, it's a part of our hobby that I put forth as a topic of discussion. It wasn't the feds that shut me down, it was the state. I was selling them on the HAMB and someone ratted me out to the state. I found out that in our state a junkyard is supposed to turn all the titles over to the state when a car no longer exists. It may have came into law a long time ago and they had these titles before that. The junkyard has been defunct for 20 years or so.
I'm not talking about wall hangers, I'm talking about situations like members asking where they can buy a title or like the thread that got me to thinking was a person openly asking (on a different forum) how he could buy this title and not take any risk of his DMV rejecting it after he paid a lot of money. That is openly discussing how to pull off a crime.
I probably sold 100 titles and every single person wanted to make sure it was open, I doubt a person wanting a wall hanger would care, or pay several hindered dollars for a non-transferrable one. At the time I didn't really see anything grossly, morally wrong with it, even though I knew what I was doing and after all lots of other people were doing it, and I always made sure and used the "not for illegal purposes" tag, even though I knew what people wanted them for. I'm not upset that I got shut down and other people still do it, that was a few years ago and water under the bridge. And I'm not trying to mess it up for someone else. I just think it's worth getting other people's opinions on.
Personally, now I use the legal channels available, maybe not always in the spirit of the law but never outside it. Like if only the land owner can file an affidavit, then I leave the car on a "person's" land for the legal amount of time. Or let it get impounded by a friend with a towing company and buy it back when they have the auction.
 
We all know the "wall hanger/ Historical Document" thing is a wink wink. But we all want to be politically correct and safe when discussing them, especially in print.

I can now understand how you ran afoul of the law in your State, WB. I guess it was the volume you were doing and some do gooder ratting you out.

Don
 
I have buddies that have used the old sneaky title trick. They would pay big money for instate titles, out states are to hard to work with because anything that hits the road gets a vin inspection before the title can be turned into a Colorado title. This makes buying a out of state car risky because if anything is wrong with the numbers you are back to square one. I have heard that no vin/serial numbers were on any cars before some year (can't remember the year) but I can tell you that the 1926 nash I'm working on has a serial number (you can see it in the first set of pics on my build thread, nice shinny tag right on the front cross member) FYI for Colorado a vin, serial number or a engine number (not motor engine:D by a class that is given to trucks over a certian ton rating) is all the same.

For some guy that is building a rod for him self and is never going to sale it I say good luck to you and if you get caught sorry for you. For someone that is building to sale I would have to say no way. I'm not some big time car builder, I'm just trying to make the best out of looking for another job in hard times by keeping busy doing something. I have to always keep i mind that I may have to sale something, so I'm not about to duke someone on some BS paperwork. Having done this a couple time I know how to legally transfer ownership over to someone else and show them how to do the paperwork for a title (in Colorado)

BTW I did have a buddy that got caught, he didn't get hit with a charge for the title issue put the car made it to inpound. They made his start the paperwork to get it legal, after 6 months and not getting anywhere he started adding up inpoud charges and if it took x amount of months he could build another one for cheeper (his $4,500.00 ride was crushed November 2011, because of the title issue the gov couldn't sale the car)

Sorry WB3 got off track there, but I would have to say that for this type of thing going on in an open forum it sends a bad message out and makes a stronger case for the gov to get us off the road.
 
We all know the "wall hanger/ Historical Document" thing is a wink wink. But we all want to be politically correct and safe when discussing them, especially in print.

I can now understand how you ran afoul of the law in your State, WB. I guess it was the volume you were doing and some do gooder ratting you out.

Don

That's exactly the way I see it. Except "do gooder" probably need to be replaced with "self righteous ******".

Title laws have been put in effect to stop theft - a real crime. Even the law gets it (except maybe the occasional supercop type). Like I said before, keep it out of their faces and odds are they'll look the other way. It's like driving our loud rats - the law looks the other way until some busybody gets all bunched up about it then the law has to do something because they got a complaint.
 
simply save the reciepts for every single bolt and nut on your build.
take the frame to the dmv before you do a damn thing.
or build your own frame and take it to the dmv and get a VIN plate attached.
THEN build the car!

i did it because i refuse to become a felon over a hobby.
it was really easy and took about 20 minutes
 
Let's say you have a '48 Chevy truck under construction. You have a title and plates for it in your name. Everything matches. Your cab is in terrible shape and you find a good cab on Craigslist. You buy it and use the better cab. What do you do about the title?

Another one: You find an old body in a field and buy it from the farmer for a couple hundred. All the numbers are missing, rusted off years ago. It could be a Dodge, or a Chrysler. Early 1920's vintage before VIN numbers were used. A friend sees it and says he had something similar years ago. Still has the old registration card for it in his name even though he never built the car and scrapped the thing long ago. He offers to transfer it into your name. Would you do it? There's no way to prove the registration card is not for the body in hand.

You build a fiberglass T bucket on a purchased aftermarket chassis. Follow all the legal steps and get a new title and VIN. Later you find a steel T body and replace the glass one with it. What to do about the title and VIN?
 
Well Don, if you're in NM it sounds like it's no big deal to go to DMV, so how about say, in IL.... uh.... good luck! CA is a tough one too from what I hear.
 
simply save the reciepts for every single bolt and nut on your build.
take the frame to the dmv before you do a damn thing.
or build your own frame and take it to the dmv and get a VIN plate attached.
THEN build the car!

i did it because i refuse to become a felon over a hobby.
it was really easy and took about 20 minutes

That's what I'm doing on the rpu but here you have to take it in after it's built.
I realize there are a lot of what ifs, like mentioned. I would say if you are changing bodies, then go find out what the process is.
 
Dodge, chevy, ford, etc... they all had to get a manufacturer's license to build and sell cars...
not because it is a privilege to build a car
it's your right to build a car
it's a privilege to build one to market to the public.
Commercial manufacture of completed motor vehicles is a restricted activity requiring a license
Howver this is in regards only to manufacturing a completed vehicle for sale to the public.
The restrictions on manufacturing do not cover manufacture of components from which a motor vehicle could be assembled
Nor do they apply to the individual for his own use.
Same as in patent law under which patents only protect commercial application of an invention and do not restrict reserch or private use.
What you do for yourself is not commerce.
so you are free to build anything you like
And as long as it complies with DOT regs concerning necessary equipment etc. for operation in a public highway...you are free to operate it on a public highway.

Exigency- if it is legal to do something
and a lesser law stands in the way preventing the doing of the legal thing
One may carry out the lawful activity in violation of the other law.

For example it is illegal to drive on the wrong side of the street
but if your ina semi making a dleivery which requires you to do it
as long as it is legal for you and your truck to be there then the law against drivign on the street cannot be used to prevent you from taking the corner if you must use the whole street.
the law against running a red light cannot prevent an emergency responder from going through the intersection on the way to a call

Your rights are superior to the rule of law.
You are under the protection of law
Public office, the courts, and government statute are under and subject to the rule of law.

If the state requires insurance and registration for operation of a motor vehicle on a public highway then the state MUST have a proceedure for the EVERY person subject to that law to insure and register ANY dot legal motor vehicle for that purpose.
If they do not have a proceedure they cannot mandate it
Failure of the state to establish due process voids the law for which there is no process.
It becomes or remains unenforceble.
This law is currently being upheld by the states

Likewise if the State requires insurance to register a motor vehicle and the motor vehicle is in storage and not in use on a public highway for which insurance is required, then it is illegal for the State to charge the owner of the motor vehicle with failure to register the vehicle or lay a lien against the vehicle for the failure to register for lack of insurance. This is a current abuse in practice.

With an understanding of Exigent circumstances and how the law and the courts upholds that a law is void if there is no process established to comply with the law...
You could argue that the State MUST title your vehicle or any laws requiring title registration etc become void and unenforcible.
This is in fact true.
Every state has a proceedure of due process established by which one gets a motor vehicle titled.
Every one...
No exceptions...
No loopholes...
If the vehicle is dot legal for operation on the public highway...
They MUST issue title for the vehicle if they require a title for registration...
They MUST issue registration for the vehicle if they require it for operation
regardless of how you aquired the vehicle...

If you have complied with the proceedure of due process and the state refuses to issue title or registration you can sue the state and the court can establish ownership this becoems a court order the state must abide by.
But so as not to upset the judge and not to have wsted public resources you better be able to demonstrate that:
You know the law
You complied with the law
And that the state or individuals in office have refused to comply with the law.

What happens when the vehicle is impounded is this:
there are degrees of claim in a property
Title to a property includes:
there are rights in posession
there are rights in enjoyment (use)
there are ownership rights

When you fail to prove to the state by bill of sale or title transfer that you have ownership rights in the property your rights in posession also become suspect
The state can direct the impound to take posession of the property and thus by this legal action the impound now has a higher claim to rights in posession than you do.
Your's is verbal, theirs is by lawful action of siezure.
Not only that... because of towing and storage fees, the Impound can now also show a vested interest in the property.
The only way to beat this claim against your property is to show a higher claim... documented vested interest prior to the siezure and some legitimate documented transfer of ownership.
Now in the world of vehicle title transfer, the title document has been legislated as the higher instrument.
However the "bill of sale" in all law is still the primary legal instument which transfer's ownership in all property and as such vehicular title transfers still (as far as I know) must be accompanied by a bill of sale.

it is possible the state will not recognize your bill of sale as transfering ownership in lieu of a certificate of title document but the title document is merely the certificate of title. it is the witness, the proof of title it is not however itself the title..
Title itself is an intangible. It is a right, or package of rights, Intangible- it is not a thing which can be touched much like information is intangible.

So, no "certificate of Title" is not in itself evidence of having no title (no right) to the property.
Neither is a lack of bill of sale
What these missing documents create is a lack of clarity, a "CLOUD" over the Title.
The state then siezes the property under suspicion it may be stolen or might not legally be yours. this siezure through lawfull posession and vested interest creates a documented higher claim to the property than you had walking into the dmv.
This gives them the right to not return the property to you until your claim becomes a higher claim than theirs.
It is the same legal proceedure that occurs when the court rules in a dispute.
Highest and best claim wins.

If you still don't get this you probably are a peaceful person or just not good at war
We do not live in peace we live in conflict
The courts are the established venue for the orderly resolution of conflict.
What occurs in court is a battle. the state has positioned itself to win unless you present yourself or your claim as superior.

Now I'm not saying the court will rule along the lines of law but it should
And if the state provides a process to comply with the law and you have completed the process, the state cannot deny you the protection of the law.

When you show title to the impound you are presenting them with a higher claim they cannot beat and once their vested interest in the property has been reimbursed they must release it to the owner.
if the car isn't registered or insured they still ahve to release it if you brought a trailer as clearly their releasing it is not causing it to be illegally operated.
If you have a bill of sale you can petition the court to assign ownership.
If it becomes evident in discovery that evidece did exist of your rights in posession, your rights in enjoyment and a vested interest, then the state did not in fact have a higher claim in the property and their posession of the property was inferior to yours (not legal) and they cannot then impose those towing or storage fees. in such case they should be ordered by the court to release the property to the rightful owner free from towing or storage lien.
 

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