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RoddingRon

A man in his natural habitat....a Studebaker
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
1,626
Location
Lehighton,PA
Wasn't sure what section to put this question in, so I figured I throw it here.

My sisters 2005 Ford Freestar's AC stopped being real cold....My first thought was to get a can of A/Cpro and top off the system. Problem was when I hooked up the gauge it was way past the maximum pressure on the gauge. I didn't want to add any refrigerant to the system under those conditions. When she picked me up from the hospital today, she turned on the A/C after we started moving, and on the highway it actually cooled off...not freezing like it should have on max, but it did cool off. When we slowed down it started getting warm again coming out of the vents, but as soon as we started speeding up it cooled off again.

Is this related to the pressure being to high in the system, or should I look somewhere else for a problem?
 
What is the ambient air temp?

What refrigerant is being used?

What is the pressure while the system is at rest?

What is the pressure while operating? (Both high and low.)

Is it virgin refrigerant, or has something else been added along the way making it an unknown. (Can change the operation perimeters if it's a cocktail mix.)

If the system checks out, could be a vac check valve open causing the doors to move as the engine vac increases and decreases from idle to roadspeed.

Are you seeing frost form on the discharge tube of the evaporator?

Is there any frost forming on the inlet tube to the evaporator.

Water draining out of the evaporator tray ok?

No water spilling over into the car? (Generally in the passenger side. Gets women all excited with their bare legs and sandals.)


Lots of little answers to gather before a diagnosis can be determined/guessed at.
 
Just going to mention in general, if a system is low on Freon / refrigerant, there is a leak and it needs to be addressed, as these are supposed to be sealed systems.

Anyhow, on your problem are the fans actually running on the radiator/condenser? Usually the ECM will run both fans, or speed up a single fan to help pass more air across the condenser...

My other thought is that where the refrigerant comes into the evaporator, there is a metering device, if that were to get clogged (from contaminants in the system etc) you may see high pressures but not a lot of cooling...
 
what dr said, and it sounds like the dryer and screen might be clogged. we just went through this on a international 4300. as long as you was moving it had cool air and warm when stopped. changed the dryer and screen, now it spits ice at you, which is a good thing here in the southern u.s.
 
Another thing to check. The temperature control (on the dash) on my daughters Ford Escape stuck just before it would turn all the way to cool and I had to replace it. Same symptom.
 
what dr said, and it sounds like the dryer and screen might be clogged. we just went through this on a international 4300. as long as you was moving it had cool air and warm when stopped. changed the dryer and screen, now it spits ice at you, which is a good thing here in the southern u.s.

A must have in the south.
 
What is the ambient air temp?

What refrigerant is being used? Whatever the factory had in the system

What is the pressure while the system is at rest? Not sure about that

What is the pressure while operating? (Both high and low.) Running on high it was 100psi not sure about low

Is it virgin refrigerant, or has something else been added along the way making it an unknown. (Can change the operation perimeters if it's a cocktail mix.) All factory...it always worked until this summer

If the system checks out, could be a vac check valve open causing the doors to move as the engine vac increases and decreases from idle to roadspeed.

Are you seeing frost form on the discharge tube of the evaporator? No

Is there any frost forming on the inlet tube to the evaporator. Not that I saw

Water draining out of the evaporator tray ok? I'm not sure

No water spilling over into the car? (Generally in the passenger side. Gets women all excited with their bare legs and sandals.) No...I was on the passengers side for over 25 miles


Lots of little answers to gather before a diagnosis can be determined/guessed at.

Some of your questions I should double check....especially about the frost and evaporator tray. I checked it over a week ago, but like I said I had some hospital time since then....and I might not get chance to get out and check those things for a few more days
 
did you check the pressure on the high side of the system? that may be why it read so high. find the other schrader valve on the low side and check that.
 
Id start with the fan(s) make sure they are running. Then check the clutch/comp, see if its cycling or staying on. low pressure or a high head will cause the clutch to disengage.The hi and low fittings are different so you shouldnt be able to mix them up and if the comp is not engaged your reading will be high due to the equealized pressure.You want about a 40 suction 250 high.
 
Some of your questions I should double check....especially about the frost and evaporator tray. I checked it over a week ago, but like I said I had some hospital time since then....and I might not get chance to get out and check those things for a few more days

Where the frost is forming can often give you clues if your system is under or over charged. If it frosts before the evaporator, generally that indicates an undercharged system. Not enough freon in the system to stay in it's high pressure liquid form, it starts to evaporate before getting to the evaporator. If it frosts after the evaporator in the outlet line, you likely have a flooded evaporator and the system is over charged.

There is a high pressure side, and a low pressure side to refrigerant systems. That was what I was referring to with the high vs. low pressure question. If your using one of the small cans with the short hose and color coded gauge attached, you should only be able to hook up to the low pressure side anyway. You would need an adapter to hook to the high side.(NOT that, that's what we want you to do) Good chance you would blow the can up in your hand, the can can't take the pressure a compressor can put out.

A quick course on refrigeration systems to help understand some of the questions and what to look for.

Take a piece of blank paper and draw a diamond standing on it's end, make it big enough to add some labels and notes. (Starting at the top, you should be going clockwise on your drawing.) Alright, at the top point of your diamond draw a small square and label it "Compressor". This is the heart of the system. It takes the low pressure freon gas/vapor and pumps it up to a high pressure gas/vapor and pushes it along to the right of your diamond drawing to the next point which is the condenser. Draw a small square at this point and label it "Condenser". The condenser does just what the name implies, it condenses the high pressure vapor into a high pressure liquid. High pressure also equates to high temperature, high enough to get burnt badly if you get bare skin against any of the metal parts. You can tell if your system is working properly by how many bugs, if any are stuck in the condenser. It gets hot enough to cook them out and they break up and blow away with the wind as you drive. Condenser plugged up with bugs? Good chance the a/c isn't working properly if at all. Another clue on the well being of your system. The condenser also acts as a radiator for the freon and removes a lot of the heat from it, in this case the more the better. Now we carry on to the bottom point of our diamond and draw a small square there and label it "XV" which stands for "expansion valve". The name can be a bit misleading, yes is a valve of sorts. It used to be a valve as we think of them, it would throttle open and close controlling the correct amount of freon to the evaporator, but now with the modern systems, most use a fixed capillary tube. A bit smaller than a ballpoint pen ink reservoir in size. It is sized so just the correct amount of freon can pass through to do the job. It doesn't throttle or change the freon flow so it's referred to as "fixed." And since it took over the job of the expansion valve, the name stuck. We just completed the HIGH PRESSURE side of the system. Make a dashed line from the top point (condenser) to the bottom point (XV) dividing the diamond, and everything on the right side is high pressure. Now, the XV has high pressure liquid freon on oneside, and since the XV is just a small tube with hole in through it, that high pressure freon is just going to come rippin through there to the low pressure side. What happens at this point, is the same thing that happens to a hot radiator if you take the cap off. It is released to a low pressure area and turns to vapor/boils. (Also known as steam for water.) Up until this point the rad cap kept the water in a liquid form even when it was hotter than the evaporation point of 212 F. It can be controlled. Same thing with freon, it can be controlled as well. The main difference being, the freon system is a internal controlled leak. As the freon comes through the cap tube in a high pressure liquid form, it enters the evaporator core which is a relatively large low pressure area and boils into a low pressure vapor just as the water did when it was released into the low pressure air. This boiling action of the freon is where the cooling effect takes place. We left off at the bottom of our diamond at the XV. Going up to the left to the next point, draw your small square and label it "Evaporator". And as mentioned, the evap is where the cooling action takes place, its the aluminum core up in the dash. From there the cool, or even cold freon vapor is drawn back to the compressor, to start the cycle all over again. The cool returning freon vapor is the only cooling the compressor gets, so it's important that the system has enough freon to do the job. While the diamond drawing works well to visualize the layout of the system, the XV and the evaporator are right next to each other in real life. The system is much more efficient this way, but the diamond layout makes it easier to understand.

Ok, hopefully I didn't muddy the situation, only meant to help you understand the basic system and see why some of the questions were asked. Some may seem a bit offbeat, but there is a reason.:)
 
I have always understood the theory of how an AC system works, but your way of explaining it is excellent. Thanks for taking the time to post this explanation for non-AC folks as myself, I appreciate it. It will definitely help me in the future when I'll be doing a little troubleshooting of my own.
 
Also make sure the compressor is cycling IE: clutch kicks in and starts to spin. The pressure will build then it will kick back off. Pressure will drop, then compressor kicks back on repeating the Cycle. If you have a faulty pressure switch it could be leaving the compressor on all the time.
 
Depending on the a/c system, i.e. an fot(fixed orifice tube) or expansion valve will have a lot to do with how you troubleshoot the system. With an fot, frost on the liquid line would indicate that the fot is clogged. The primary question now, is why is it clogged? Most people think that adding a refrigerant with a stop leak is the solution but most times it will cause major problems with the system. Stop leak will clog up everything and now you have to replace the entire system, the most costly mistake many car owners make. Now, if you have an expansion valve(most small cars) the biggest problem I have seen is the "bubble" breaks off or a hole gets punctured in it. If that happens, you have to get the system evacuated and hold a vacuum in the system to boil off all of the old refrigerant and compressor oil so as not to contaminate the new refrigerant you put in later. A/C systems are not filled according to pressure, a/c systems are filled according to weight. The larger the system, the larger the weight of refrigerant/compressor oil. Pressure readings are for diagnosis purposes only. I hope this helps and doesn't muddy up the water any more than it already is. A/C systems can be a tricky system to figure out but once you do, it's a piece of cake.
 
Holy crap....I miss a couple days and I have an encyclopedia to read.

Thank you everyone who added to this!!! I will now go through what you guys have written and try to digest it (at least I can re read it a hundred times if it doesn't sink in right away :D )
 

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