Ford V-8 questions for the experts

[BigIrish]

A few questions for the ford experts so I can hopefully win a bet and also answer some questions I've never gotten good answers to:

- What is the difference between a 351 Cleveland and a 351 Windsor. Is a Windsor also known as a 351M? Why is the 351C so much more desirable?

- Is the FE (427, 428) a different engine from the "big block" (429, 460)?

- Why did Ford ditch the Y-block and develop the small block and big blocks? Why are the Y-blocks less loved than the others?

That should keep us busy on a Sat morning

 

[Sam_Fear]

Small Block V8 221, 260, 289, 5.0/302, 5.8/351W
Big Block V8 - 385 Series 6.1/370, 7.0/429, 7.5/460
FE & FT Big Block V8 332, 352, 360, 390, 406, 410, 427, 428
335 Series- 5.8/351M, 6.6/400, 351 Cleveland

Y-Block V8 239, 272, 292, 312, 317, 341, 368

The Y had oiling issues and was maxed out at 312 (the bigger #'s are Lincoln Y's) HP wars were building and Ford needed something else to keep up. I think they are kinda shunned because they aren't flatheads and are heavy and underpowered compared to the later blocks.

 

[donsrods]

351 Windsor is very closely related to the 302, some parts interchange, or can be made to fit either one. The 351 Cleveland is a totally different engine and almost nothing is the same as the 302 family. 351 M and 400 M are different than all the rest, but look similar to the 351 Clevelands. Of the bunch, the 351 M an d 400 M are the least desirable, almost no speed parts available at all.

429-460 are very similar and almost everything interchanges. These are generally called the big block Fords. The FE family, 352, 390, 427, 428 are in a group all by themselves too.

Y blocks were used in a ton of cars and trucks from 1954 on until about 1961 in cars, and even later in trucks. They did have some oiling issues, generally from lack of maintenance.........the passages would become plugged. Hot rodders who are traditionalists still like them and they do have an old timey look to them. I had a friend who had a 292 that was built with a Ford blower cam, three carbs, and it was beating a lot of Chevy's back in the late 60's. So they can be built to put out some good hp.

Don

 

[HOT40ROD]

The 302 and the 351 W are in the same family. The block on the 351 is taller and wider then the 302. The only parts that are interchangeable are the heads. The intake one the 351 is wider .

298 and 302 blocks are basically the same. The 302 has a long cylinder well so that the piston did not slap when it got to the bottom of the stoke.

Also you will find the the 289 block made before August 1st 1964 will have a 5 bolt bell instead of the 6 bolt bell.

There are no 221 or 260 blocks with 6 bolt bells

the 351 C is in the same family as the 351M and 400M. The 351C block has shorter deck hights and has the same motor mounts and bellhousing as the small block ford. The 351M and the 400M use the same bellhousing as the 429/460 motors.

The heads on the 351C, 351M and the 400M are all interchangeable. The intake for the 351M and the 400M will not fit the 351c.

Also the 4V intake on the 351C will not fit the 2V heads, same with the exhaust manifolds

The 351C, 351M and 400M heads are larger then the 351W heads and have canted valves and even the 2V haeds have larger runners then the W heads. They can be made to fit the 302 and 351W with some machining and a special intake that is not longer produced.

Nothing from the Fe motor will interchange with the 429/460. They are to completely different animals.

As fotr the Y blocks. They were good motors in there days but they have issues with getting oil to the top of the motor. Ford did make an external kit to fix it.


Anything else just ask. I still have all the ford factory tech sheets from back when we were racing.

I think I covered everything

You got to love Fords to work on them

 

[rainman]

[cl Well done, there's no use in me chiming in nothing else to add!!
Bravo!

 

[zzrodder]

Books have been written on all the Ford engine variations.
Here's a few more to add to the list.....
Boss 302, the only four bolt main Windsor type small block with Cleveland style heads and it's own unique intake.
Boss 429, a 385 series engine (429-460 family) with aluminum hemi type heads and intake.
The MEL engines (Mercury, Edsel, Lincoln), 383, 410, 430 and others, similar to the FE family (332 - 428) though few parts interchanged.
Interesting displacement combinations could be had mixing FE parts like a 427 block using a 428 crank (with custom rods and pistons) makes a 460 cu. in. FE engine.
A legendary oddball that never saw use in production cars was the 427 SOHC, based on the 427 bottom end with single overhead cam aluminum heads, massive front cam drive housing, it saw lots of use in factory supported racecars in the 60's.
Even before the overhead engines came out in the 50's, Ford made several different flathead V8 engines for Lincolns that shared few if any parts with the Ford flatties.

 

[Bonehead]

As I understand the later Y blocks are better about the oiling problems, passages were bigger. I like my Y block. My ride is no rocket, but it sounds great, and alot of people can't figure out what engine I have.

 

[zzrodder]

As was Don pointed out, it was often maintenance that was the cause of the oiling problem to the rockers. There is a jog in the passage between the heads and the block and it would sludge up. Also the oil used back then was non detergent and pretty bad by todays standards. Ford Y blocks regularly outran small block Chevys (that'll start somethin') in the mid 50's, they were really torquey engines. In spite of the crazy over/under intake ports, they did make good power and the shaft rockers were more stable than Chevy's individual stud mounted ones. Yes, they were heavier, not a thinwall block like Chevys.
Of course, once guys figured out the new Chevy mouse motor, they developed into the best all round V8 of all time and overwhelmed the Fords in sheer numbers alone.
There's more goodies out there now for the Y block than ever now and improved materials and techniques that allow building engines that are everyday reliable and more powerful than in their glory days.

 

[Snake Farm]

As I understand the later Y blocks are better about the oiling problems, passages were bigger. I like my Y block. My ride is no rocket, but it sounds great, and alot of people can't figure out what engine I have.

Amen to that! Love the sound of a Y block[cl[cl

 

[BigIrish]

Lots of good info!

So that begs the question - why did Ford develop a whole new line of big blocks? And why develop several different 351s? Weird.

 

[zzrodder]

It's been said that the makeup of Fords management is different than the huge corporate style of GM so more running changes were made to engine designs, etc.
The later 429-460 big blocks reflect this. The FE was a 50's design with it's deep skirt block, also the head design was a bit warm running on the exhaust side. The new series engines had improved oiling, splayed valve heads and capacity for 4 bolt mains.
351's are something else, different needs like car or truck uses probably played a role, also the 70's were a time of turmoil with the Japanese invasion and fuel crisis added to the mix. US OEM's were trying many different things.

 

[dyce51]

wow lots of great info on the Good Ole Ford engines!! You guys covered most everything. Like HOT40ROD stated "You got to love Fords to work on them". I know I love my fords!! (my 2 are 351c cj and a FE 390 GT) The Cleveland Cobra Jet heads are awesome 2.19/1.71 valves!!!! They breathe like no other!

 

[pacrat]

Wierd 351 clevland

Ok this might start a new thread all together, wierd symptoms.
Several years ago I had 71 or 73 cougar that had a 351 clevland in it, not sure of all the specs but it had been cammed up a bit aluminun intake and holley 4 barrell, as you might expect it ran pretty strong, most of the time, ocassionaly it would seem to miss and sputter with substancial loss of power, heres were it gets wierd, the only thing i ever found was it would be 1 quart low on oil, never seemed to loose oil pressure or get noisy but all i ever did was add 1 quart of oil and back to running strong, this probably happend 3 to 4 times while i had it. Now I have owned probably a couple hundred cars in my time most makes and many models, I have never had another vehicle with the same issue nor have i ever heard of anyone else having the same problem. Any ideas.

 

[dyce51]

Hey Pacrat thats the Imfamous Ford Duraspark System. I've owned several fords and a few have done that from time to time. I change out the duraspark box and it was all good.