Proud owner of a '52 Hemi 331, Trans questions

[Dirtyrat]

I'd like to hear from some of the Hemi guys, hopefully there are some here.

I picked up a 52 331 chrysler hemi, motor and a 3 speed semi auto (3 speed manual trans with a torque converter).

Now, is this worth the trouble of making it work properly, or dump it and get the Wilcap adapter to go to another trans thats better performance suited?

I'm leaning toward selling the trans to someone who could actually use it for a car, etc, but if its a solid 3 speed that will be bulletproof, or I can somehow disable the torque converter portion to make it a true manual I might consider keeping it... Either that or jsut the nostalgia factor of keepign the driveline as it was in the 50s..

Thoughts, opinions? Thanks for the help guys.

 

[Gastrick]

Congrats on getting the 331 Chrysler Dirtyrat. I'm a hemi owner/user. There is a sticky on my 392 rebuild at the top of the main page if you have not seen it. My personal opinion is to ditch that transmission unless you are doing a restoration. There are more user friendly options out there. Even if you are trying to do a 50's era rod, I don't believe very many people stuck with that trans.

 

[donsrods]

Bill is right. Lots of years ago I owned a 51 or 52 Chrysler for one day. I blew the same transmission you have in one night doing burnouts. They were a weird combination of automatic and stick, and I don't think I have ever heard of anyone using one in something else. As I recall, they were called Fluid Drive.

There may be some initial outlay to do what Bill did, put an adapter on it to use a more modern TH350, but it will pay dividends in having a more modern design and one any transmission shop can fix, especially if you break down 500 miles from home. I did the same thing on the Olds 394 in my current project, added a Bendtsens adapter and TH350, for the very reasons I just mentioned. It would have cost me more to have the old, outdated 59 Olds transmission I had behind the engine freshened up than to start with a better design.

I think Bill used a Hot Heads adapter, didn't you, BIll ?

Don

 

[Tripper]

Bill is right. Lots of years ago I owned a 51 or 52 Chrysler for one day. I blew the same transmission you have in one night doing burnouts.

This is hilarious & what u can expect Dirtyrat. That Hemi will make u lose u're ever lovin' mind!

BoB

 

[Old Iron]

Bet ya can't say Hemi without smilin [ddev

 

[Gastrick]

I think Bill used a Hot Heads adapter, didn't you, BIll ?

Don

Correct Don, I used the HH adapter. The fit was very good.

 

[Dirtyrat]

Well, the problem is that I have a '52 long casting block, so my options for transmissions are a little more limited because of what adapters are offered.

At this point, I am trying to decide from the 4 adapters they offer.
They have adapters for 51-53 Hemi:

331-318AT - 1951-1953 331 Chrysler ( Extended Block or Bellhousing) to Chrysler 727 or 904 automatic. Includes flexplate. Uses stock or aftermarket starter.

331-FTL 1951-1953 331 Chrysler ( Extended Block or Bellhousing) to Ford "Top Loader" 1964-1978. Uses Stock flywheel.Uses stock or aftermarket starter.

331-FT5 1951-1953 331 Chrysler ( Extended Block or Bellhousing) to Ford T5 1979-1992. Uses Stock flywheel. Uses stock or aftermarket starter.

331-350MT 1951-1953 331 Chrysler ( Extended Block or Bellhousing) to Chevrolet Manual Trans. Uses Stock flywheel. Uses stock or aftermarket starter

So where I'm at is trying to decide if a T5 is strong enough to deal with a built hemi, or if I should try to find a top loader Ford, or just go with the 727. I am leaning toward a Muncie if I can find one, I see M20, M21 out there, going from memory, was it the M22 that was the "one to have"? What are you guys running for transmissions behind the Hemi?

 

[Dirtyrat]

decisions decisions

I think I have decided to go with a 727.

Mostly cruizing is the plan with the rat, and the auto will do that just fine.

Anyone interested in a '52 Hemi transmission 3speed semi-auto fluid drive? ;P

 

[BigIrish]

Just a side note on that trans - it's actually not a torque converter, but a fluid coupling. Very similar, but doesn't multiply torque like a torque converter. Pretty inefficient, and primative. Interesting though...

 

[Dirtyrat]

On the planning stages of partial or full rebuild, I'll knwo more when I get the heads off and pan off, but anyhow, (For sure the heads are getting redone with hardened valve seats, and valve job)

Are other kits available other than the Hot Hemi kits for rebuild?

I have been researching a little but have not found a whole lot of options.

8.5:1 still seems low, I guess I'll do some phone calls to them and inquire, as I want to use their water pump conversion, but sounds like I need a later model cam in order for it to work, so I'm not sure if they will ship the kit with the later model camshaft etc.

Thoughts?

 

[Dr Crankenstein]

So where I'm at is trying to decide if a T5 is strong enough to deal with a built hemi, or if I should try to find a top loader Ford, or just go with the 727. I am leaning toward a Muncie if I can find one, I see M20, M21 out there, going from memory, was it the M22 that was the "one to have"? What are you guys running for transmissions behind the Hemi?[/QUOTE]

Yes, the M22 is the toughest Muncie box nick-named the "rockcrusher". Has straight-cut gears instead of helical cut like the M20 and M21. The M22 is virtually indestructible, but is hard to find, and usually has a big fat price tag.

I tortured an M21 for years, and never broke it. That was in a heavy full-size 67 Impala with a 300hp SBC. I tore out clutches, u-joints, and even broke a spider gear in the diff once, but never broke the trans.

The M20 is the same box as the M21 but with a wider ratio.

All depends on how much power you expect from your hemi, an M20 or 21 might be enough.

 

[donsrods]

Nothing wrong with an automatic in a hot rod........I've had sticks and automatics and both were a blast to drive. My 27 has a top loader 3 speed out of a 68 Galaxy 390 car, and for over 20 years I have abused it, now with a 331 stroker, and it has never given up yet. That Hemi won't hurt too many transmissions unless you get real stupid doing burnouts all the time.

Don

 

[440Clark]

Yeah, any of those trannies would be fine. Despite the fact I'm a chrysler guy, I'm leaning towards the T-5. Overdrive makes cruising with 4:10's no big deal. and hooking with big tires is what breaks driveline parts. Stick cars are a lot easier with big cams too. Only thing is the Fox body boys chewed up alot of that stuff, so you don't just find it layin' around much anymore. You could probably put a 3.08 gear in it and get 20+ mpg!

 

[Dirtyrat]

You know I was looking for a T5, but yea I didn't think about the OD aspect of a 5 speed... That may be the way to go.

Are there any years/models that were much better than the others? Like the Cobra T5 ? I know the adapter from Wilcap is like '79-'93 I believe for the T5.

Thanks for all the ideas, and info guys!

 

[Gastrick]

Well I didn't use a rebuild kit on mine as I mixed and matched a lot of different parts, Such as h-beam 440 billet steel rods, Isky cam, adjustable pushrods, Milodon main studs, and such, but besides Hotheads, Egge Machine sells rebuild kits for your engine (I used their pistons) http://www.egge.com/kits?make=CHRYSLER, and PAW sells a lot of early hemi parts. You might want to check them out for various items http://www.earlyhemiengineparts.com/. Hotheads will modify the cam snout of early cams so you can use their timing cover if you so desire. They will probably work with you on what you need. Another place I have picked up a few items from is TR Waters. A good fellow to deal with. http://home.together.net/~twaters/index.html. Another place is Quality Engineered components, http://www.qualityengineeredcomponents.com/ although his website appears to be under construction. He posts here sometimes under the user name of "Wayfarer" but I haven't seen anything from him for a while. Like you eluded to in your post, I think you'll probably need to make some phone calls to put together a package that suits all your needs.

 

[donsrods]

As you can tell from Bills list of parts and upgrades, when you decide to play with Hemis you will be spending some money ! There is just no way around it, parts and labor on "oddball" (and I use that as a term of endearment) engine is always higher than if you are doing something like a small block Chevy.

For example, I have about $ 3500 in just machine work and parts on a pretty much stock rebuild on the 394 Olds engine in my latest project. I could have built two sbc for that money. So we pay for the uniqueness of having a Hemi, Olds, Buick, Pontiac, etc motor in our cars.

Just thought I should mention this .

Don

 

[Old Iron]

As you can tell from Bills list of parts and upgrades, when you decide to play with Hemis you will be spending some money ! There is just no way around it, parts and labor on "oddball" (and I use that as a term of endearment) engine is always higher than if you are doing something like a small block Chevy.

For example, I have about $ 3500 in just machine work and parts on a pretty much stock rebuild on the 394 Olds engine in my latest project. I could have built two sbc for that money. So we pay for the uniqueness of having a Hemi, Olds, Buick, Pontiac, etc motor in our cars.

Just thought I should mention this .

Don

Yea but look what ya got when you're done

 

[rev_to_red]

i have a 331 in my '33 5window coupe. used a hemi to chevy trans adapter from hothead hemi. we did have a 4spd saginaw but decided to go with turbo350 to make it more streetable.

 

[Krooser]

You really don't need the Chevy water pump.... millions of Hemi's have run just fine without 'em... same with the 340 oil pump conversion.

My advice is to toss out the catalogs, spend some $$$ on good pistons ( I like Venolia's for their service and friendly folks) and have a cam ground for the type of driving you will do.

Find a good competent machine shop that can work on anything (my builder does everything from one lung Kohler's to aircraft engines)... the price for machine work is the same whether you are building a SBC or a Hemi... parts are more for the hemi.

I built my 354 with a 6-71 blower for under $5K total... it can be done but not unless you toss those catalogs...

 

[Gastrick]

You really don't need the Chevy water pump.... millions of Hemi's have run just fine without 'em... same with the 340 oil pump conversion.
.

Just as a side note and not meant to contradict Krooser at all, with the situation I was in when I put my Chrysler together, the Chevy water pump deal was the best option for me. I was putting the Chrysler in a car that was already configured for a shorter engine and I needed the space The Chevy setup provided. I also was interested in the weight savings in an attempt to not change the front end weight by too much and overload my front spring as it was already configured also. It all worked out well for me but it's not for everyone. I tried to make it look as inconspicuous as possible. Heck, I even still use the old road draft tube system.