gasoline prices!

[flat6rick]

they say the reason for gas prices going up is

unrest in mid east countrys. well maybe we should take to the streets here in good old america rip some sht up cause some havic of our own they might get the picture then.

 

[BigIrish]

What about steam power?

Modern power plants actually do run on steam power. NatGas or coal or nuclear heats up water to very high temps & pressure and drives steam turbines. Crazy to think that with all our advances, we are still spinning steam turbines to make power and running reciprocating engines in our cars - 100+ years after their invention![S

 

[junker39]

My 2 cents worth. There is no "energy crisis". I work refineries for a living and have seen how big oil can change overall gasoline prices, at will. We have plenty of capacity to make gas. I hear all the time, there hasn't been a new gasoline producing unit built in the last twenty five years. You know why? Because they don't need one. Sometimes when you hear on the news that there's a shortage of gas and the price is going up. You can bet, and I've seen it many times, there's a cat cracker just sitting on "idle", making the minimal amount it can and still run. They do this all the time. It's still listed as "operating" so, it's assumed it's putting out all it can. That's BS. They play with the output all the time. And the price of crude is manipulated to seem like they have to buy it to use it. How about when say BP, has three hundred wells producing oil. They are buying that oil from themselves. And saying it costs this much for crude. After a certain period, when the well has paid for itself, that's pure free oil. And they price the gas according to the going rate for crude because they are buying it. From themselves!! It's a big game. How do you think they have made record profits since this "energy crisis" started?

 

[BigIrish]

My 2 cents worth. There is no "energy crisis". I work refineries for a living ....

I understand your frustration...refining is an extremely tough business to work in, try to make money in, and to understand.

I'm only beginning to get a grasp on that side of the biz, but I can tell you it is more complex than most folks that consider themselves smart would think. I'm smart, but I'm not that smart.

I guess I'll start with this about refining, similar to my point about gas stations - BP refinery does not just refine BP oil, it refines whatever oil is the best quality and price at that moment (btw I do not work for BP). It could come from TX, Alaska, Europe, Venezuela, whatever. That ship full of oil docking at Sweeny could have come from Singapore. Why buy oil from Asia when we have sh**tons of it right here in TX?? Simple - the traders have negotiated a better price for that cargo of Singapore crude than what they could buy it for right here. How could that be? Oil is purchased many months out, years out even, and that cargo from Asia was negotiated at a time when Asia crude was way cheaper than TX crude, even factoring transportation costs.

Confused yet? You ain't the only one brother!! You gotta be a damn genius to make money consistently in this business. Unfortunately I'm not one, I just work here.

 

[junker39]

BigIrish, that is correct, buy it the cheapest. But, when you have your own producing wells, you don't have to buy. Well, you do have to buy it from the other division of your company. That's how they justify it. They ARE buying it. From themselves. All the oil wells in Texas and everywhere else, in the states, are producing oil that is used here. Some refiners, mostly independant ones, have to buy at market price because they have little or no resourses to drill their own wells. They may buy locally or from overseas. Big oil buys some, too. They are forced to charge more for their product. The big oil companies have no desire to take over the smaller ones. The small guys are the ones that keep the price up. The big guys just follow suit with a big smile on their faces. We could discuss this forever and not come to any conclusion except we are pretty much powerless and are at the mercy of the oil companies. If we want to play, we gotta pay. That's all.

 

[Fe2O3]

If you are truely interested I'd suggest look at the "peak oil" debate for starters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

Then if you are open minded enough you might concider http://www.energybulletin.net/node/48677

 

[IAM-LDS-2]

If you are truely interested I'd suggest look at the "peak oil" debate for starters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

Then if you are open minded enough you might concider http://www.energybulletin.net/node/48677

Thanks for those links , way too much reading for a Sat/work /honey do day , will try it later on when I get done working . We must all realise that all the info we get is slanted and not always the complete story .

All companies - big or small - are in business to make money , period . The oil/gas industry seems to be one of those good paying ones we hear the president talk about preserving or bringing back to America . After all their expenses are paid , including the good wages and benefits for the employees ,what is left is the profits . Which go to the stock holders in the form of a dividend . For many many people this dividend is part of their retirement money . Not all bad guys I reckon , they think the "obscene" profits are a good thing .

 

[Neverdone]

my thoughts

 

[busch]

Words of wisdom please don't be offended LOL

 

[Torch]

Global Economics

Well, in the eyes of the powers that be... The resources don't belong to the people who live where they are deposited...Resources belong to those best positioned to profit from them.
It involves global politics and the employment of economic hit men.
There is a plan for American Oil. if that plan will benefit Americans I can't say.
America's economic and military dominance has be used to promote the plan.
Other world powers have the similar capacity but are under the control of socialist parties. they have state capitalism and in those countries party politics not global politics rule, those countries while abusing the rights of their people do what's in the best interest of their own power structure...along the lines of their own ideology
The Anglo-American banking cartel and corporate Industries control politics in America and abroad. Some call it American Colonialism. it is neither American nor colonial. it is however a plan to control the world's resources and direct the lives of people. these powers see individuals collectively as resources.
In American Politics we have what is known as the Iron-Triangle.
The Iron Triangle is the relationship of Industry-Legislators-Enforcement.
The economics professor who coined the Iron Triangle metaphor asks farmers and private businessmen where he speaks to raise their hands if they consider themselves members of their industry.
After they do, He tells them that according to the government none of them are considered to be members of their industry. They are officially "suppliers to the industry". Who the government officially respects as "The industries" are corporations such as ADM, Tyson, Nestle, ConAgra, etc.

"The Industry" donates to the campaigns of legislators.
The legislators pass the bills and instruct the regulators how to enforce them
Enforcement enforces the law against private business in support of industry.

Tradesmen and private businessmen are not in this 3 way loop, the regulation is to prevent them from growing strong and to protect the industry. This is why it is nearly impossible to change something like eliminating the beef checkoff program.

The legislators do not write the bills. Just like in the movie THE AVIATOR when The airline industry authored a bill to prevent the private businessman Howard Hughes from competing in "their" market.

It is called Capitalism but it is a Neo-Capitalism where centralized control and finance is in place in contradiction to the distributive economy ordinary Americans classically understand as "Capitalism"

This Neo-Capitalism differs from Communism, Socialism, Fascism, Monarchy only by who pulls the strings... the organizational structure is still the same...centralized.

What is a centralized Economy?
There is a minority of interests which controls all legislation and commerce... enforcement, production, transportation, banking, etc.

A chicken farmer in Arkansas or anywhere else nationally sells his chickens at a very small margin to the industry which processes and distributes the chickens nationally. Largess is retained in the industry while producers and tradesmen receive subsistence prices and consumers pay exorbitant amounts.
The laws are written to prevent the producers from interacting directly with the consumer protecting the market for the industry.
Taxes are levied most heavily on the producers and the consumer and private business. The industry receives special tax breaks insuring it's dominance.

Who is the industry?

We are told that we the investors are the industry.
While it is true that Individual Americans who have something to invest do profit from this scheme and rightfully so... as it should be in a free country...They are not the majority interest in this centralized economy. They earn a token return on their investment often in distributions of less than 10% annual return. Higher gains can be earned in growth stocks if the market is played right and the investor becomes a gambler.
While all this is going on... the "Market" we are familiar with, these industries issue a more exclusive class of investment not available to the individual investor.
Individual investors account for a small percentage of the command and control structure of these corporations.
Who owns and controls them?

Public entities are forbidden from investing in private business by the separation of state and commerce.
The Answer is:
The Banks, The federal reserve, the IMF... Big Private Money, the ruling class.
Sovereign investment funds
Federal State and Local Public fiduciary accounts
Unions
Insurance companies
Pension plans...

And of course who manages these portfolios and directs the management of the corporations in which they are invested?
lawyers, Executives, and Accountants schooled in the policies of the Private Banking Interests.

Your representatives' investment accounts, pensions, and health insurance depends on the proliferation of public industry and it's dominance over private business.
These establishments live on forever. You on the other hand must surrender a lager portion of your income in taxes, abide by stricter regulation, cannot afford to self insure, and cannot pass on 100% of your business to your heirs because of the inheritance tax.

In Soviet Russia the government stole businesses from it's citizens and made it all public industry.
In America The banks directed the government to make it more expensive for private business and made it harder to compete with public industry.
Through economic forces resulting from unjust legislation Private business is driven out of the market or forced to go public.
The powers that be acting through fund mangers and capital investment groups then purchases controlling interest in these companies.

I'm not in a position to point a finger and say it's the ruling class of public servants using the banks to increase their position collectively or if the Banks are using the ruling class to do the same.
You really cannot cal it a conspiracy. I prefer to call it an "Cooperation of Mutual Interests" or "Association of like interests".

Now that I've outlined their command and control structure, I'll get to the plan...

 

[Torch]

American currency used to be backed by equity.. the equity was gold and silver, it could have been any tangible property.

The US government was the sovereign instrument of the people and was not incorporated

Originally people dug up or otherwise acquired gold and silver and deposited it in the bank in exchange for silver or gold certificates for the convenience and security of not carrying actual gold and silver everywhere.

When the Global Economists bankrupted the US in 1913, the US government went into receivership. Due to the fraud and a fractional reserve banking system, the currency in circulation was far in excess of reserves.
A "Bank Holiday" was declared to give them 3 days to extract all bullion reserves from the banks during a run on the banks thereby prohibiting people from getting their gold and silver back from the bank.

Their gold and silver was stolen and used by the government to pay it's debts to the private world banking interests but the people were allowed to retain the IOU known as the federal reserve note and continue to trade it as money.

prior to the US bankruptcy of 1913 FIAT money was not legal money in the US.
Lincoln went against that grain with his greenbacks. while real bullion backed currency was in circulation, no-body wanted script.

The government could not simply print up money to pay for services and goods. It must be backed by something...
In fact the government still does not have the power to print up fiat money.

The private federal reserve bank was created out of the US Bankruptcy of 1913 and has been given the legal authority to create fiat money...and our government borrows those notes from the federal reserve at the prime rate and the federal bond rate.
The script still requires backing...The constitution was overturned and the US citizen was made chattel property backing the dollar.
Prior to this the supreme court had ruled the law does not apply upon the body of a free person only to the land...and it was unlawful to tax a persons income.
But now the body of a person has become the equity for the dollar note and this new legal condition created the condition of persons being taxed directly.
Individual income is now mined to pay the dollars' debt.

But even so, this can create only so much currency. For the US dollar to become the worlds reserve currency there must be more behind it than just the rights to seize the personal incomes of Americans.
it was necessary to establish the US Dollar as the worlds reserve currency to give the private world bankers through their entity the federal reserve the power to establish a global banking cartel.

This was accomplished by closing US Oil wells and forging treaties with Saudi Arabia and other Oil producers.
Our part of the bargain was to close our wells and buy their oil... Their part of the bargain was to establish the US dollar as the exclusive currency for settling all international trades and to take payment partially in US treasuries.
This extended the personal income backing of the dollar to oil equities and increased the currency supply.

The deregulation of the banking industry and fractional reserve banking led to an increase in the money supply exponentially in excess of actual currency in circulation. There is way way more debt being traded as money than there is equity to settle that debt.
As the tech bubbles popped big money transferred it's holdings to real estate and pharmaceuticals.
Then as those earnings driven industries ran out of growth... Big Money sold out before the correction taking their profits and reinvesting in futures and derivatives driving a real estate bubble and skyrocketing fuel prices.

These skyrocketing fuel prices led to consumer liquidity issues and brought reduced consumer spending and consumer credit defaults which through fraudulent derivatives and pyramid schemes led to commercial credit defaults.
The first $750 billion bailout during the bush years included 60 billion in mortgage defaults. 60 billion would have bought the homes of everyone in default as a gift.
The other $690 billion was to both bailout the banks exercising influence over public office and bailout the public corporations the public sector and unions had invested their retirement and health funds in.

back to the Global Politics...
While our economy is beset with the schrapnel of exploding fraud a certain plan remains to be followed.

The Money supply was increased and made the global reserve currency.
Certain Oil producing nations decided to abandon the US dollar as the reserve currency.
Speculation in energy around 2006-2008 after harvesting profit from other sectors of the economy drove up the cost which then crashed the economy.
The economic crash went around the world causing global unrest. Special interests then began to work at toppling the governments in the countries that had plans to abandon the US dollar.
when the dollar collapses the treasuries these oil producers have held will be worth much less.
The Bankers made money selling the oil, now they make money tanking the dollar.
They have planned to not open the US oil reserves until they own them and these reserves have been removed from American Ownership.

there are so many different forces at work and different entities jockeying for dominance in a corrupt market...
but there is an over riding global presence working to take control of our oil for it's profit not ours. One of the rumors is that this presence maintains and has completed plans to use America's military to subsidize and coalesce it's command and control of world energy and materials markets and will continue to do so.

A lot of theories and rumors and history tied up in it all
But according to the oil industry itself, they predict oil reaching $200 a barrel by 2012.

The price of oil is strongly tied to the work of global economists working to bring in global government. And it's not a global government of free trade and distributive capitalism. it's a centralized economy with centralized authority.

The ability to pay for the cost of energy, the value of the dollar, the transfer of wealth from producer to financier will continue on it's given path unless the politics change, unless the laws change, and the people change and reclaim their individual authority.
The problems in America is not the availability of resources it is corrupt and unjust law...
I'm not talking robin hood take from the rich and give to the poor, I'm talking about restoring the equal protection of law, states rights, the sovereign right of a government to create it's own money instead of having to borrow it... and restoring individual rights. The law being on the land and not upon the man, Only taxing a thing and not a person...the elimination of slavery...the direct personal taxation and the restoration of freedom...
every dollar of personal income tax goes not to pay for government but to the federal reserve to pay interest on the borrowed fiat currency in circulation.
there's a reason everything is run the same at every corporation...
and every job pays about the same in it's class, and the requirements of those positions and company policies are about the same...
The boss is the same...
The law has been tilted in the favor of special interests and energy is only one of the tools they use to harvest you.
There is a lot more to it than demanding lower fuel prices or using alternative energy.
For example...The interests who exploit energy loaned money through other parties to the private biofuel industry....the industries believed to free the market from the dominating interests and bring down energy costs... and in the economic turmoil they created, they purchased these industries and added them to their portfolio of global dominance.

While I do not support Obama or follow Obama's politics and without getting into politics legally defined as this candidate or that.
He did take one capitalist step in the right direction.
The elimination of the ability to abuse the foreign tax credit by sheltering US income in foreign divisions.
Industry cried foul and called it anti capitalist.
He only went halfway with it though...Instead of completely eliminating the foreign tax credit...they can still shelter that US income in foreign tax shelters but only of if they re-repatriate that income.
Nike builds a shoe in China for $3 sells it to Nike in the Bahamas for 4$...marks it up to $50 jobber and sells it to Nike US for $55 and claims $5 in US income per pair although they made much much more...
I can't compete with that can you?
The change in the handling of the foreign tax credit will increase the US GDP but not entirely eliminate the loophole that I, engaged in business as a US domestic corporation cannot enjoy.
I can't sell a doo-hickey, or any service sold to an American through China through Bahama then claim US income of 5% of the retail bid and claim the other 95% of income as exempt and subject to a foreign tax... I have to pay US tax on it all

There is no free market at work here.

 

[IAM-LDS-2]

As Yogi would say "it's that golden rule all over again ". I think you are saying we are being manipulated . So whats new , the average person has always been manipulated . That damn snake started it all .

 

[Torch]

As Yogi would say "it's that golden rule all over again ". I think you are saying we are being manipulated . So whats new , the average person has always been manipulated . That damn snake started it all .

good point!

I remember something from Business class... if you want to understand a market (legitimate not black market)and how best to position yourself in it...know the law.. because Laws rule markets.

I think a lot of what's passed off as "just business" isn't business at all.
I believe business must obey the law and the law to be valid must be just and provide equal protection and universal standards.

One uniquely but not exclusive American thing...The power is with the people... free people.... not just by representation but in a jury of your peers

Julain Assange when extradited to Sweden will not face a jury of his peers but will sit in jeopardy before a panel of government officials to plea his innocence.

it's still god blessed good to be an American!

 

[fuzz]

good point!

I remember something from Business class... if you want to understand a market (legitimate not black market)and how best to position yourself in it...know the law.. because Laws rule markets.

I think a lot of what's passed off as "just business" isn't business at all.
I believe business must obey the law and the law to be valid must be just and provide equal protection and universal standards.

One uniquely but not exclusive American thing...The power is with the people... free people.... not just by representation but in a jury of your peers

Julain Assange when extradited to Sweden will not face a jury of his peers but will sit in jeopardy before a panel of government officials to plea his innocence.

it's still god blessed good to be an American!

But in todays courts the jurors are hand picked because the prospective jurors are selected from the voter ragistration list and most private sector voters will ask to be released from jury duty because it will put a financial hardship on them. So government employees are paid their full salary to serve on jury duty and this makes them hand picked government agents. The reason wer're losing our freedom and our country is beacuse Americans will not make the least little sacrifice to help protect and defend their rights. There are of course some exceptions but too few to make a difference that might turn this situation around.
I agree this was a God blessed land but we have turned our back to God and he will have vengence......Isaiah !0:1-3

 

[rainman]

These gas prices can be summed up with one word, SPECULATORS!! It's wrong and something should be done!!

 

[Torch]

These gas prices can be summed up with one word, SPECULATORS!! It's wrong and something should be done!!

How about something like you cannot purchase bulk fuel without having the storage capacity and completing the exchange by taking delivery.

How does this following argument sound.. too extreme?
I don't exactly take this position but what about it as an argument?



"...something like that would still be freemarket if you take the position that buying something without intent to take delivery is fraud.

The seller might actually care where his fuel is going and brokering it through speculators deprives the seller of his right to chose who receives his product and deprives the customer of their right to chose which producer they buy from.

A free market doesn't mean a blind anonymous market and I always take the position that unnaturally separating the customer from the producer through creation of tertiary markets implemented or protected by legislation is a fraud.
It is an abandonment of governments primary purpose... to protect people, property, commerce, and establish universal measures and standards.... Not to create or assist in tiping the scales of justice.

Markets of commercial paper that are not markets of products... specifically designed to drive a wedge between customer and producer for the sole purpose of enabling a party that doesn't produce, consume, warehouse or transport items of commerce are derivative markets

Derivative markets don't physically trade property. they trade property on paper never actually taking possession, never actually delivering.
The financial derivative markets are simply an extension of commercial derivative markets such as futures and brokerage.

It's high time the law represents that contracts and finance are instruments of commerce.
The purpose of contracts and finance is to facilitate the relationship between buyer and seller.
The contract are agreements between and belong to the active parties in the commerce.
The government has been given the mandate to create usury free currency for us to use as money and facilitate transfer of value between buyer and seller.

Commerce is the bona fide transfer of tangible items and performed services between a producer or service provider, and a consumer.

The force and effect and protections of commerce have been unethically extended to parties not involved in the transaction. The definition of the transaction itself has thus been changed.

The routing of commerce through 3rd party artifices by contract or by force and effect of law isn't business...it's monkey business....corruption

another impurity in the legal system"

sooo...does that sound whacked or does it sound ethical...
Where does this argument protect the right to brokerage while protecting active parties in commerce from exploitation by uninvolved 3rd parties?

 

[rainman]

I couldn't agree more, I Think!![S

 

[busch]

About the only thing getting done is some humor at the pumps

 

[fuzz]

Torchman..I don't pretend to understand all I know about what you siad but having been in the trucking business most of my life I know about brokers and I guess that's prettymuch what you're talking about. But how can we change the system? I here many conservtives say a democracy will eventually destroy its self and I think that's what were're seeing in America today. A dictatorship would be a more efficient system but only if the dictator were a fair and just man. And certainly greed and pride would corrupt the man, don't you think??..[P

 

[Torch]

Hi fuzz...
I was in trucking too..having a hard time getting a trucking job after trying to enforce contracts...
I was thinking more about cutting out the profiteer middleman without alienating the right to broker..
I had to think about what that really meant.
The understanding I came to is that a bona fide broker represents one of the parties in a contract . Such a broker uses his connections and expertice to facilitate for one of the parties engaged in the exchange..
While profiteers on the other hand act as a broker but represent no party materially engaged in the commerce.

I really hate brokers like CH Robinson.. when you know how much money is on the table. When nestle ships to kraft... I think the freight rates are probably marginal. at some level the same fund managers or financial interests control both the shipper, the receiver, and the big wall street traded carrier moving that freight.
I think those kinds of loads just about pay the bills, keep a company going and in the game.
it helps them build fleets and have the capacity to really get a hold of the good paying freight...small, private, and independent business.
I'm not sure..
But i do know that if you or I needed to have a truckload of anything shipped were most likely going to have to go through a broker and pay $3-$4 a mile.

I did some research. if your looking to get freight moved and you don't know already know a carrier you can trust, the only resource available to you is the broker.
They only have an office but run ads with pictures of big warehouses and large fleets of trucks they dont own.
Several Midwest carriers I know of have process agents in other regions and put on the front that they are a nationwide outfit larger than they really are.

But what if you could bring customer and carrier together....
sure that's what brokers do but what if someone came along and did it non profit...just to create a better trade for his peers, not to exploit everyone.
everyone goes into something to get rich. i was thinking... would they be able to compete with someone doing it for the benefit of his peers. for the community.

I was completely frustrated one day thinking about how I could improve my situation in a highly competitive market where everyone is cooking out of the same pot when I realized... I can't change anything from the steering wheel.
I realized nothing will get better for me unless 1- I find someone to exploit and become a crook like the rest of them.... Or 2- I work to improve things for all of us.
I can live with the second choice.
I realized nothing is going to get better for me as a driver or as a small business owner unless it gets better for all of us.

I'm going to find a way to bring customer and carrier together in a way the independent trucker can compete with the large carrier or broker.
there has to be a way to turn the broker and wall street dominated trucking industry on it's head... to skim the oats and leave the big boys nothing but the chaff while bringing a better deal to the consumer
Whatever I put together isn't going to be dominated by WallStreet, Werner or CH Robinson.

I had an idea for a different kind of union.
Not one for collective bargaining of wages and benefits...
Not anything tied in with government or the afl/cio
Something more of a trade association through which truckers can hire out and maintain their seniority and strip from the carriers and USIS the ability to libel them and also put pressure against the government for truckers rights.
I think OOIDA has done alot of good work but at some level I get the feeling they don't entirely represent the truckers and our rights.
they seem to be soft on going against the grain and going against anti trucking influences.
I get the feeling that there is only so far they will go...

it's kinda like when you need a hard hitting attorney that's a predator with a killing instinct and can only find a lawyer that wants to hold your hand through the proceedings.

I remember the days when we were talking about striking but didn't have any organizational structure or a firm field of demands. there was discontent about the hours of service, pay, fuel surcharges, excessive enforcement and abuse,,,
But if we striked it would have just been a disruption.
OOIDA told everyone not to and said it will just make people hate us and make things worse... probably true
Like in Egypt...someone else would have rode that wave to set their own agenda in place

I'm a libertarian and tea party republican...not a neo-con.
I've criticized the people wanting to start a violent revolution in this way...
"How are you going to win a revolution...You can't even organize a peaceful resistance how are you going to manage a war?"

There still is in place in America the ability to take command and control of media, propaganda, and government peacefully.
We still have self determination even though we have been repprogrammed and what once was black and white has been made grey.
even in a dictatorship...even those in Soviet Russia found that those who can organize... can change things without a war.

I think the key is in getting down to our roots and looking over the little differences...and not doing it for yourself but doing it to make things better for everyone...You can't argue against that. You can get most people on board for that.

A boss says "hey you..go do this and that"
A boss needs force or money to have effect
A leader goes off into the woods and comes back with arrows in his hiney saying "hey folks, I found the way out of this mess".
People follow a leader for free.



Right now I'm just trying to survive.